TechTables Podcast
TechTables Podcast

Episode 100 · 1 month ago

Ep.100 Unstoppable: How Arizona and Texas Are Leading the Way in Cybersecurity [Phoenix Live Podcast Tour Series] with Tim Roemer, State CISO, Arizona & Nancy Rainosek, State CISO, Texas



Tim Roemer, State CISO, Arizona & Nancy Rainosek, State CISO, Texas

Connect w/ Tim: LinkedIn, Twitter

Connect w/ NancyLinkedInTwitter

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  • Tim - In a recent 60-minute interview, Jen Easterly, the U.S. The Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency - or CISA said, “it’s all about preparation, not panic.”
  • How are you positioning and preparing Arizona to stay in front of nation-states like Russia looking to harm the State of Arizona?
  • Nancy - last time a bad actor infected a device a sheriff in Texas took the guns out and shot the box - which was recounted on a great podcast episode on the Ransomware Files.
  • We know Texas loves its guns - what other initiatives are you looking at to help protect the great State of Texas?
  • Tim - I always see you on Twitter promoting cybersecurity with the local chamber of commerce, universities, and other programs across the great state of Arizona.
  • With a federated model in Arizona - much like Texas - what does that partnership look like with Arizona’s Dept. of Homeland Security and the local communities here?
  • Nancy - offline we talked about the regional security operations center partnership with ASU (Angelo State University) - not to be confused with the ASU here (Arizona State University). Tell us more about the regional security operations center.
  • Tim - a popular question from CIOs and State CISOs is how you discuss cybersecurity ROI and investment with governors and the legislative body.
  • What advice do you have for CIOs and CISOs looking to win over their cyber and budget visions for their states and cities?
  • Nancy - can you jump in with your perspective from Texas on working with the governor and legislative body?
  • Let’s end with positive reinforcement and quick hitters in cybersecurity training. I loved my podcast with Tim, where he talked about creating memes, passing out sweetish fish candy, and potentially even chocolate bitcoin candies for folks who wouldn’t click on spam in emails or texts.
  • Tim - what advice would you give Nancy in Texas about positive reinforcement training in Arizona?
  • Nancy - what advice would you give Tim in Arizona on cybersecurity training?         


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HMM. We have Tim Roamer, the director pomeland security for the state of Arizona, and Nancy Raina sack the SIS so for the state of Texas. Welcome to tech tables. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, super excited to have both of you on. I'm don't have it in my notes, but Tim has been on tech tables. We had two episodes. In the show notes all reference to those two episodes. Do you have a dog barking? I was trying to think the first time. Yeah, there's a dog barking. I think. Yeah, the Amazon delivery guy that was coming like six times a day. Yeah, absolutely, telework challenges of two thousand and twenty. Yeah, exactly. So today's podcast is titled Unstoppable. How Arizona and Texas are leading the way in Cyber Security. Not Nancy fluent from Texas, which I was, you know, really grateful for. I've been trying to talk to Nancy. Fun fact, I've been trying to get in front and Nancy, but there are so many vendors at task and other of as you would go to I couldn't get through the wall or circle. You're popular. I don't know what to say. Yeah, yeah, let's and everyone might know who you are. I Nancy out here in Arizona, but you just give a quick background, okay. I became the ISS so in two thousand and seventeen. I've worked for Texas for years, a lot of years. started as an auditor, it auditor and then eventually became a enterprise security manager to very large agency and then eventually moved to dirn had the fortunate opportunity to become the states is so, and I can tell you a story about that. My when I got the job, I was like so excited and...

...that's thing you want to tell your mom and dad, but they do know that's not going to happen. So I called my brother, my be brother, and I said Hey, this job and he says you won, and I was like what did I win? You guys make a lot more money, and he's smart, way smaller than me, and he was like you got the best time and I just thought this is ridiculous, it's not a competition. Who Cares? And a few years later I was thinking about it and thinking about the work I get to do in the direction I get to drive and the change I get to make in Texas, and I think, yeah, I won, so it's pretty cool. Yeah, and I didn't hear how many years you've been working. I think you were like Mamma with I had diapers when that started. He might not have been bored him that. You were actually once the state find then moved over to become the director of Homelands Katy. Maybe you just talk about yeah, so I started my career working first CIA as a twenty year old intern, as a student trainee, and I did that entire program and I converted full time staff after I graduated from Asu and worked at CIA for ten years. Spent two years in the White House Situation Room and after that I decided I wanted to move back home to Arizona, where I'm born and raised, and work on issues of Homeland Security, national security and public safety that are really important to our states around the country, because it's really fun to be focused on national security issues around the world. But I really was focused on is you, how do we protect our families and our communities? And Governor Duc provided me an opportunity in two thousand and fifteen to move home to Arizona and work on these issues and I've spent the last seven and a half years and just a variety of different roles having fun, but served as the governor's public safety advisor and our debut director of Homeland Security and our Sisso and now I'm just honored to lead our department of Homeland Security and continue to be the SISSO that's fantastic. And I think I don't have it's tell on your linkedin is. I haven't creeked on it in a while, but you had this photos, like you and...

Obama and I've when we first met and I photoshop. This is he but it's a real photo. It Looks Photoshop because the funny thing about that is when you take a picture with the White House photographer, it's all my departure day. Their camera resolution, speaking of technology, is so good that you can zoom in, you know, on yourself, and I'm not saying I've done this, of course, but hypothetically you could zoom in on yourself and crop yourself and it could be your head shot for work. That's how good the Resolut Lucian is in that photo and that's why it looks fake. It looks like I super impose myself into it. I think that camera quality is just really good. Yeah, there's the camera quality and then if you actually look at the photo, he looks like ten or fifteen years younger. No Gray Air. Yeah, exactly. So there was a recent sixty minute interview with Jen Easterley, who's the US director of cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency, Sissa. There was a quote she had said and you had tweeted it. It's all about preparation, not panic. I actually also really love that. How are you positioning and preparing Arizona to stay in front of Nation states like Russia who are looking to harm? Save Arizona? Mainly it's that. It's preparation. And so I was fortunate when I became our SIS. So are my predecessor had done amazing work to further the cybersecurity mission the state of Arizona and I was inheriting a just phenomenal team and I remember, I think of my first day, and I know he's here, Owen's orge. Oh, and I had worked and we had gone to conferences before and we had talked about cybersecurity strategy and my first day on the job we had a conversation that was we are going to be continue to be, like my predecessor said, the most exercise cybersecurity state in the country, because we recognized as a team the importance of not just having a playbook but practicing those plays so that when it's Game Day you perform. So, Joe, you're a basketball coach. You don't just roll out there on Game Day and say, Hey, we're going to do this thing called a pick and roll. I'm sure you practice...

...these types of things and, as you said in a previous podcast, you're a big organ football fan and Marcus Mariota. So what makes oregans offense great is not just because they can play fast. Anybody can play fast, but it's that they execute quickly and they play fast and they catch the defense off guard. The only way that organs able to do that is a lot of preparation. And so, as a former quarterback, I remember when I played high school football here, we had really great success in the playoffs when we got down and we had to move into a two minute offense and the media wanted to know why we were so good in our two minute offense and I said because our coaches make us practice two minute oh at the end of every single football practice, every single football practice, is a different two minute Oh, and you move the ball down the field and see if you can score. When it came game time, we had already practiced that. We were more successful because we didn't just have the playbook, but we had exercised it. Cyber securities no different. Have your playbook, so have your emergency action plan and practice it regularly and exercise it so that it doesn't just turn into panic and that you and your team will feel prepared to handle that cybersecurity murder. That that's really great and I know you go around and have a lot of speaking engagements with different cities throughout Arizona. And going back to sports, there's nothing like asking you can do with your team, but nothing like asking a bunch of high school ors to go run a play. So I might say I might yellow like a sideline play, I like Kentucky, and then you see kids scramble and you okay, they don't know the play. It's so is the same thing with cyber security. Start seeing the moment that you actually ask people to be prepared and go out and run. You figure out the level of preparation, which a lot of times is could be zero or near to zero as you can get. So I love that did not know that your quarterback in high school. That's great. Any aspirations to play college? Yes, had the aspirations. Took a football scholarship to play in a you red shirted my freshman year, got a lot of concussions. Ran The...

...scout team, tried to get bigger, but being college quarterback is difficult and I think the more I worked out, the Skinnier I got, and so it didn't really work out and I transferred Asu, sat out a year of eligibility and the next thing I knew I was in turning at CIA and never look back. I wish I could get as big as you, but my arms don't I tried doing pushups, but it doesn't work out that way. Nancy, you have a great story. You're on a podcast with the ransomware files and I forget the exact episode title, but yeah, I'll link into the show notes. It was a really great but there was a bad actor who had infected a number of devices, but there was one box. The specific story was there was a sheriff in Texas and I don't know if it was you and Mady Crawford went out to go investigate this box in the sheriff took his guns out and shot the box when you'd ask for it. Hey, we need to have this computer and I think the Sheriff said, quote, I took care of it. And then the next question is, what does that mean? means that after because guns out and blue the blox up. But I think is, I know, the greatest story and one great way to stop cyber packs from happening. So I know you love Texas and guns in Texas and you'll have your guns right now. But what other initiatives are you looking at to help the Great State of Texas? We have a number. When that ransomware event happened there were twenty three local governments all over Texas, and Texas is very big and just getting to the payanhandle or getting to East Texas, West Texas, South Texas, took time and we wanted to execute. We want to execute quickly. We had a water system that was impacted and so when we did the hot wash afterwards, we were like, okay, what if it had been fifty? What if it had been a hundred? Could we have handled it and been a successful and responding so we put forth a number of initiatives. First of volunteer instant response team because we had a number of vendors. The vendor community was just so generous an...

...offering their gut, their guns. They were generous with their guns, are their technical folks, but we didn't have a way to bring them in and put them to so we've got, we're standing up a volunteer instant response team. We really want to locate them across the state and we're also setting up, and I've got funded for additional people on my team. So that and especially during this Russia Ukraine thing, we had a playbook, we practiced it, we were ready. When I got that call that morning in August. First all, if I was like, okay, here it Goes Min and then it became no, this is what we prepared for, this is what's where the reverd meets the road and we're going to go do this. We're going to do it. And and my favorite quote from Ted Lastso is when I see impossible, I think I'm possible. And so we've also we're sitting up regional socks. We've got a pilot and fortunately we were funded by the legislature and it was some signed by our governor. So we are partnering with Angelo State University for our first regional stock and this is going to provide cybersecurity services to the local government entities in that region and educate the students. We're really excited about this and eventually we'd like to have one the different universities all across Texas. We just made the announcement last week that we selected Angelo state and we're really excited about having that capability out in West Texas so that we can move forward and develop the workforce of the future, which is a very yeah, that's really great. Not to be confused with Asu, which is Arizon State University here and Asu in Texas. So you jumped around a little bit. So I want to unpack this. You combining questions and that I was going to ask in in that moment in August. What did you end up maybe there's one or two things that you took away, that you learned right. So you went from Oh my God, I'm going to get fired, to I'm going to lose my favorite job to to okay, Hey, we're going to we're going to execute quickly, we're going to go make whatever...

...adjustments we need to make and solve this. Is there maybe one or two things that pop out that you took away from that? The thing that I keep learning is when ransom or hits a local government, it really hasn't greater impact on the sist citizens and their ability to do things and and it seems you wouldn't think about like the ability to do a traffic stop, because there were required to record video recordings of every traffic stop and they get to the point where they can't download the film and in their files. So it's just learning everything about local governments and how great of an impact it can have. The other thing is the collaboration and making sure you have good partners and we worked with the military department, at the Department of that safety, the division of Emergency Management. We had all the tools in place and it's a lot of what made a successful was that collaborative collaboration. Yeah, I love that, Tam I know you're on twitter all the time, which I love, promoting cyber security, of which is great. The local chambers, universities, other programs with a federated model in Arizona, much like Texas. What is the partnership look like with Arizona's Department of Homeland Security and the local communities here. When I first became the director of the Arizona Department from that security the biggest challenge was giving us a little bit more of a public facing identity of the department. Previously really didn't do a lot of interviews. Was a little bit more secretive, and not in a bad way. It reminds me of the first ten years of my career. Does in the intelligence community didn't really exist, and so it wasn't until as from the first podcast, that the governor's office said, stop telling us to retweet things for you. You can open up your own account on your own and I thought, oh no, I'm not going to do that, because once I go down that path there's no turning back, and there wasn't. So I've had to embrace it. But we use it to our advantage because when the big things in Cybersecurity is spreading awareness and outreach, and twitter gives us a platform to at least reach more people. And it's so easy to tag a city or put a Hashtag... there and then you know that you can immediate with the team of one and I can be our Pioh and I can send out a tweet, but then Bam, I get to be the spokesman for our department. As you mentioned, I have a communications degree. There's no reason really to hire somebody to do it. You social media to our advantage, and so that was just the biggest challenge was taking a department that previously never did any of the interviews, the social media and then showing them the benefits of doing it and how our department could have more reach and more impact across and I like what you do as far as going to universities and this think provides exposure to kids who are in College of Oh, I'm getting a communications degree, but maybe cyber security is something that I can, you know, look into. I love that that piece of it. So, Nancy, we talked off line about the regional security operation center, which you jumped to early. That's okay. So I was curious, you know, could you maybe just go a little bit deeper on the regional security operation center, like why now, and then maybe what you're hoping other future centers would look like? To it's we're really hoping to have outreach to the local governments, because a lot of times when you when we call, and you will get a message from MSI second says, Hey, city of XYZ has an issue and so we'll try and figure out who to talk to in this city and the guy I'll be out mowing the yard around the Court House or whatever, and that's their it support, or it's the deputy sheriff who happens to know a little bit about it, so he helps. And we really want to be able to provide some good support for our local governments and have have the ability to monitor their traffic, have the ability to do some training and do some assessments and help them build good security programs and and then also bring the students in, and it was interesting when we had this August incident. A M university was there and...

...they brought some of their student in terms and there was one kid that I kept talking to and eventually I said Hey, when you graduate with me up and his his mentors were like you're never going to be able to afford him, Nancy, and I said sometimes it's not about the money, it's about the passion for the job and having the ability to really make a difference in in the state. And the kid came up to me later and said can I have your card? Now I'm not heard from them. I don't know if he's already graduated or what, but I think just showing those students that that there's a place that you can go and really make a different that's a good thing. Yeah, no, I love that. Ten when you meet with kids, use that is one of your hiring tools, to say you can take a photo of me and they can turn into a meme. Do you have? That's usually a reason for them not to come to work for us. They're like career killer, you know. Right there, I know the whole meme thing and funny pictures of me came out because when I first came to Ada, and we mentioned this, I during Doug Langs podcast. Doug had this phenomenal strategy of for our department Ada Asset and under JR Sloan's leadership, to be our CIO, Douga. This strategy where for our employees to get to know us a little bit better, as management will do, with a speaker journey series and we'll talk about ourselves and will unpack who we are and it's going to help drive some engagement and have a little bit of fun. And it really didn't. It work, and so what I wanted to do was, when I show my resume a people immediately think, Oh, you've had this type of background, so you're really seek itive, secretive, you're really uptight, you're going to be really hard to please, I don't want to be around you, type of the thing. And I keep thinking no, I think I'm a pretty fun, laidback person. So what I decided to do was Doug wanted us to talk about not just our successes, because people know your successes when you become their boss, because it's in a press release in your bio, looks all real nice. And you know what? They don't put in your press releases, your most embarrassing moments of...

...your career. And so doug had this way to let's have a little bit of a fun and have our employees get to know us. So I shared some of those with the team and it really did work and it really helped us have a phenomenal relationship across the entire department. But those are things you don't live down ever again. Yeah, now, I love that. The company that we named was levity media, levity obviously meaning lightness, easygoing fun, because I looked at the landscape and, as I can do, people take themselves away too seriously right now you have a little more fun in your life, so I love the levity that you bring. A popular from CEEIOS and States Aso's is how do you discuss cyber security, Roy and investment with the governors and legislative body? What advice do you have to win over their cyber and and budget visions that you can provide for other states, SISSOS and large cities and counties? You have to make it relatable, especially to elected officials. It's not just your governor's office, but it's your legislature. A cyber security is not something that most people understand right now. Worldwide, and specifically nationwide, cyber securities a heck of a buzz word. How you can bring it up and you can get a lot of support the legislature for more cyber security funding, and people don't even know what that actually means most of the time, and so you have to find a way to make it relatable, give them that reason why they need to care about it, why they need to fund you. For us, it was about finding a way to highlight the risks in the vulnerabilities within the state, why we needed to remedy that and how we would actually go forward and doing it, and my predecessors had this great plan of using a vendor that put our risk score as a state into a credit score, and it was great because you can go to the governor and you can explain to him, Hey, our cyber security resiliency is a six hundred right now in a credit score and he can say that's not good, we need to fix it. And then we can go to every cabinet level agency director and we can say your specific credit score, so your cyber risk score is fifty or six fifty or whatever it is. It...

...made it digestible for them to understand where they had their problems, where they had their weaknesses. We sold why cyber security was important and that would be my best advice to anybody that needs to find a way to drive their cyber security policy and priorities is you get to your c suite, even the private sector, how do you get your CEO to pay attention to cybersecurity? Put Cyber Security in a format that they can understand why they need to pay attention and why they need to fund it. Ours just so happen to be our risk or and a credit score, and it really helped us drive home the case of why we needed to pay more attention to it. Yeah, and when you mentioned that on the first podcast, I have not stopped remembering that. I get whenever I talk about the folks in like I'm like, God, wonder what their credit score is and trying to figure trying to figure it out and just ask them. And I think this is a great relatable model to be able to because it would be people like me. Cyber Security Buzzword, so complex, too much, and then you're like that's five hundred and seventy five right now, and you're like, oh, that's terrible, we need to give you money. Just like your credit score, it can be good one day and really bad the next day. So, just like cyber security, it takes continuous improvement. It takes consistency. You can have a really good credit score and you could be the victim of identity theft today, or your spouse could go out and purchase a brand new vehicle. Any number of things could happen and that's going to go down. You can have one employee make one mistake. You could not patch really critical vulnerability. Your credit score could be eight hundred one day in six hundred, Nancy, how are you seeing this in Texas right now with the governor and the legislative body? How do you make them buy in? And we do maturity ratings for every State Agency in university and we have a cyberscruity framework. It's modeled after mist but not as not as an end. We measure every two years and we do a report to the legislature and show where improvement is happening over time and...

I think getting credibility that way is important. We're very fortunate we have the backing of the legislature in our governor in terms of improving cyber in the state and and those relationships have been built over time and so it's it's working for us. I love that. Now I know we're coming up and we'll get questions in a minute, but I wanted to end with positive reinforcement, going back to when Jarre and I were talking about leadership and team like getting that positive reinforcement so your team buys in. And the podcast we had I love because we were talking about not only the memes, but you were passing out Swedish Fish Candy and even like trying to find some chocolate bitcoins. The all this like really great stuff. And even you'd get folks to click on spam emails. I wish. You're really great. So I was curious what advice would you give to Nancy about positive reinforcement, that that you've learned with your team and Arizona that you can't just do it once? Obviously, Texas is such a large state that things that were able to do on a smaller level. I think of the challenges for somebody like in Texas is the massive amount of employees they have, their human fire wall and trying to continue to make cyber security relatable for all of their employees and make sure that Nancy's department has a pulse and in a connection to all those state employees that yeah, we've done some fun things, but you've got to continue to move it forward and I'm happy to say that finally, the chocolate covered bitcoins like the chocolate cover gold coins, to say thank you to some state employees and some state organizations that have done a good job on cyberscarity. We finally have that calendard and just in time before it gets really hot, because we were really nervous that they were going to melt. And Arizona, which wasn't my smartest idea when I originally came up with it, but we had talked about my team came up with this great idea of the Swedish fish in the Goldfish is positive reinforcement for finding fishing emails. And then we are at one of our state agencies. We're at the Department of Revenue, which our deputy director and deputy sister, Ryan Murray, now for our department home my security. He was at revenue at the time and we came up with the idea of the thanks for saving the state of Arizona Bitcoin. So we're going to finally do that with... of our largest state agencies. That were excited about that little positive reinforcement, a little outreach, but just it needs to be constant. It can't just be once a year and we need to do a better job of it as well to make it relatable and communicate. It's all the employees. Yeah, now, that's really great. I actually tried to buy some chocolate bitcoins for you. I hear they're just sold out. I don't know, it's say, it's just they're impossible. Yeah, you bought of all. Yeah, and I think when you make it relatable, there's all these cyber security training and there's they just so can they can be so boring and dry. So if you can get some humor in there, make people laugh, they're going to remember you and they're going to remember the training. And so now, Nancy, I'm curious. I know no one's taking memes of you because that would be crazy, but what if, I think, you give the Tim into Arizona from what you've learned in Texas we gain? We've done some gamification escape rooms the election officers. We came up with a game where they had to like look at pictures of an office and tell what's wrong with it. And a lot be an open file cabinet or a sticky on a computer. But really trying to do something so that, because I know so many people, they have to do their annual training and they turn it on and surf the Internet, Ye attend to meeting, and so trying to find something that's really good to catch their eye and be different is something that's it's it works. The other thing we do is we offer training to the security officers at the other agencies and their staff for certification and we pay for their certification testing that that's one way that they can develop their careers and move ahead. That's one thing I'm really into is developing my people and trying to develop the other people. We've also expanded it to be like secure coding training and for the developers across the state and I was amazed that at the number of people that that we use that budget every year and I was really amazed at that... much that was used in Texas. So I think it's just offering services, looking at them as your customer, be at your staff or another agency, and just trying to push things forward. Love it. We'll take some questions from the audience and it's some folks. Yes, see, I'm sure cyber insurance is control right now that were going on. Who So many days going on? I love the most dates represent your putting a lot into the global government as well, which is what I trying to seed it. I'm curious you guys have programs. Are you looking at cire insurance right now from the standpoint of it is not being do I even needed? Do I move on and Sun somewhere else? Are you guys looking at that? As far as opportunities, is education to help out out in the state. Love but at a low. Yeah, we are. I'll give the Arizona perspective and Nancy can give the Texas perspective, because I'm interested to hear from Nancy on this. It's more of the ladder part of your question, and that is regarding cyberus Co insurance. I think an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and cyber risk insurance has become so unbelievably expensive and difficult to purchase through so many variety of different challenges that I basically told our team I said, look, I'm a big supporter of having the insurance. We do need it, but at the end of the day I would rather have a fraction of that money that you give me right now to proactively go prevent the emergency. So I don't need the insurance funding. It's like your car, for example. Everybody needs car insurance. You have to have it. That's fine, but if you only save up for your insurance and you don't do any preventive maintenance, you're really going to need that insurance. No, no, Aaron the tires, no check in the battery, no oil changes. Will Guess what? You're going to need that car insurance when you break out, breakdown on. What we've said is we want to put resources on the front end to proactively prevent against the emergency because at the rate of Cyberusk insurance rising so much. We're trying to partner more, we're trying to purchase more...

...of it, but at the same time, if that was our number one strategy, was just on the insurance side, boy we'd need a lot more money and we'd be using it. I would rather have the money on the preventative side, but that's my opinion. I'm I'd love to hear her Nancy on that, on Texas and see if they've had more success on the insurance side. Being federated, it's each agency for themselves, and then make those decisions. We haven't purchased it at my agency. A number have, and there was a really large agency that got who with ransomware and they use their cyber insurance for that recovery. But that's the only that's the only time I've seen it used as a state agent. The counties and the cities and school districts get it through their association, so the Text Association of counties, Textas Municipal League, Texts Association School Boards and they make and I'm amazed that they have these policies that are paying and some have paid the ransom when they've got it with ransomware. We don't believe in that. We again, we believe that you're better off spending your money fixing it rather than paying a criminal to restore your data. But so that that's the approach we taken in Texas. Yeah, and Nancy and are fortunate to both be states as SOS. So when the SISSA funding came is coming out through Congress from the infrastructure bill, they've come to Nacio and they've asked for our input a security professionals on what we think the funding should be spended on and what we think, the funny shouldn't be spended on. And correct me if I'm wrong, Nancy, but we are pretty adamant as a group of SISTSOS, that the funding should not be spent, be allowed to be spent on the insurance side because if you spend it on the insurance side, that's going to take up all the funding for your local government. They're barely going to get anything in return. And again they're really going to need the insurance because they didn't do anything to prevent the cyber emergency from happening in the first place. So Nancy and I are fortunate to be part of NASCIO and to be part of that conversation and I applaud Sissa for going to Naci and asking for our input on this and we...

...look forward to hopefully putting that funding to good use later this year. I know there's some other questions out there. In those regions, we asked these universities to bring us proposals and and we receive some really good responses where they actually went out to the local governments in their areas and got letters and showed us where they got the buy in for joining that initiative. It's the first one. It hasn't been stood up yet. We just named it last week, but but I'm really excited that we've got these partnerships with universities that are away from Austin that are actually trying to engage these local governments and they're bringing it forward in their proposals. Great Nancy Ten, thank you coming on tech table. appreciated.

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